This guy can piss me off like no other.
Take a look at an excerpt from Bill Kristol’s recent Op-Ed What Obama Left Out, which is about Sen. Obama’s commencement speech at Wesleyan this weekend:
“Obama chooses to introduce the notion of public service…but there’s one obvious path of service Obama doesn’t recommend — or even mention: military service…He felt no need to remind students of a different kind of public service — one that entails more risks than community organizing. He felt no need to tell the graduating seniors in the lovely groves of Middletown that they should be grateful to their peers who were far away facing dangers on behalf of their country” [emphasis added].
Can I quickly explain why, you douchebag? Could it be because any educated person worth their salt understands that the American military of today is little more than the hired thug of oil barons or Neocon fuckwads like you? Could it be that they realize more good comes from building schools than bombing them? Could it be that their four years in higher education revealed the lies their teachers and their parents told them? Could it be because they learned from their studies of ancient Rome that a standing army is the worst thing that can happen to a democracy?
Or could it because they just want to spite ball-sweat fuckers like you.
Man, I hate this guy.
42 Comments
he’s setting the stage for what is going to be a popular talking point in the general election… - the republican strategists and the media pundits are going to make love to the fact that mccain is the only candidate who protected our country militarily… - they’re going to paint mccain as some kind of golden boy of the apocalypse…
yay…
and of course… - they won’t go into any details about mccain’s actual experience… - you know… - like burning down villages and having sex with vietnamese hookers and how many people’s heads he blew off… - no… - none of that… - just the candy coated superman fluff… - you know… - the kind of stuff where mccain is an american hero…
a tear just rolled down my face…
Do you two need a hug? why so angry. I am by no means in favor of this war or any for that matter, but we need a military. We need national defense. I never agreed with this war, I thought we were right to invade afghanastan, and remove the Taliban. We should have not looked towards Iraq after that, but finished the job with arresting Osama. But George W had to finish what his father started…which is why I would never had voted for Hilary. I firmly believe their should never be two presidents that are related elected President within 12 years of each other. You think if Bobby K was not killed, but elected, we wouldn’t have had a 51 state, Cuba?
As for Obama not mentioning military service, it should have been one of the options he spoke about. It also one of the better public services a person can do. How many stories have you read over the years where a Gangsta, hoodlum type person enter the Military, and came out a better person. They learn respect, discipline, and honor. So to be that upset about Kristol’s comments is a little over the edge.
Burning down villages and blowing peoples heads off? What was he Rambo? I disagree that the Army is hired thugs for the oil companies but that is not the point. The point is that the people in the army, the men and woman that join, do not do it with the idea that they are doing the oil companies business. They are giving a service, sometimes sacrificing their lives, with the belief that they are doing it for their country. You are missing the trees looking at the forest.
You wrote:
“The point is that the people in the army, the men and woman that join, do not do it with the idea that they are doing the oil companies business. They are giving a service, sometimes sacrificing their lives, with the belief that they are doing it for their country.”
And that’s my point. Who joins the army nowadays? This is from a 2004 report entitled, “America’s Military Population,” published by the Population Reference Bureau:
“Enlistment is…predicted by parents’ education (children of college educated parents are less likely to serve), high school grades (those with higher grades are less likely to serve), college plans (college students are less likely to enlist), race and ethnicity (African Americans and Hispanics are more likely to serve than whites), and attractiveness of military work roles.”
Which is to say that, generally speaking, students attaining a degree in higher education do not consider today’s military to be a “public service” institution. And to my mind, they (we) are correct.
That’s not say that the military has not ever been a public service. As it says in the same report:
“The armed forces did not become a major institutional presence in the United States until the 20th century and did not become a major factor in the American occupational structure and labor force until the last quarter of that century. The United States was founded with a militia tradition of citizen-soldiers, and a cultural aversion to the excesses of the peacetime standing army of England’s King James II. A national army was raised during the American Revolution, but in 1783, after the United States won independence, the Congress discharged the Continental Army that had defeated the British, except for 80 soldiers retained to guard the military stores at West Point and Fort Pitt, plus a proportionate number of officers, none above the rank of captain.”
To join a militia of citizen-soldiers would be to enter into a public service–much like being a volunteer fireman is a public service. But to join this army, today’s army, an imperial army–not so much.
My brothers..slackers with low grades, bless their hearts, want to join the military and while I WANT to be supportive..I’m really screaming….noooooooooooo don’t do it.
p.s. I don’t think I’ve ever seen the word douchebag more on this site than yesterday.
horray.
I would agree that the people who JOIN the army by choice, are doing so for a number of reasons, but primarily (IMO) these two:
1. To give themselves a better life
2. To serve and protect this country
Having said that, I think there are a lot of problems with today’s military structure, strategy and overall effectiveness. However, I don’t blame the soldiers one bit (even if some of them, are potentially sadistic and crazy, because I think the vast majority are very much not). I guess I think that anyone can read any speech and pick out something they “should” have said and obviously, they are going to pick out the military part becasue its going to be a huge election issue between him and Johnny Mac.
But if he did say it, the same columnist would argue that he has no right suggesting people join the military when he was too much of a wuss to join himself….I mean, let’s be honest, why even react to these things anymore. They are so insanely biased and misguided and ridiculous that by commenting on it, you just provide more fuel to the political pundit fire….
I’m guessing he didn’t mention a hunder other versions of public service that are equally important in helping to shape this country…so what?
I mean how pathetically obvious is attacking Obama for his lack of military service…its insane…I mean Kerry served and Bush didn’t, so they attacked Kerry in the way he served and found some republican soldiers who came out and said he was a pansy or whatever…I mean…it’s a game…there’s always an angle and with the amount of money and power at stake, its just a matter of when they start lobbing the grenades (pun intended).
Anyway, even though I am ardent obama supporter (for a thousand reasons) in some ways, I feel like he might get crushed by the republican attack squad and his strategy for staying “above the mud slinging” may ultimately kill him.
At least you know Hillary and the Clinton machine would fight back.
First of all, I think the last few months of the Democratic primary have showed that Obama will fight back. Just look at his response to Bush’s speech in Israel.
Second of all, as to why I decided to comment on Kristol’s commentary — simple, I’ve got a blog, and if I can’t react to what pisses me off on my blog, what the hell? Sure, there’s other things one can do with a blog, and if you go back through the archives, you’ll probably find a large assortment of those things (book reviews, personal stories, podcasts of the year’s best music, etc.). You’ll also find a lot of media criticism.
This post falls squarely into that. Plus: Take a look at the category name. The posts in this category are responses to what I take to be a World Gone Mad.
All of which is to say that, on Fluid Imagination, I’ll write what I damn well please.
And yes, I’m in a bad mood today.
Also, I’m not blaming the soldiers. I’m just saying that educated people who want to go into public service do not consider the military as a viable route, and for good reason.
still do not think you are getting the point. Just because a majority of the army is made up of people who do not meet your standards of “smart” people does not mean they are not sacrificing themselves for what they believe is on behalf of their country. Your problems lie with the educated that directs the army and not the “uneducated” that serves in it. That does not change that most in the military feel they are serving the public, and if they believe that then they should be commended or at least acknowledged from the guy that if elected would be the commander of that force.
good response Justin. I knew I liked you for a reason.
Also “I’m just saying that educated people who want to go into public service do not consider the military as a viable route, and for good reason.” So what are the hundreds of students at west point, the navy & Air force academy doing and the hundreds that are on waiting lists to be accepted? And some would say they are some of the most educated students in the nation, with the admission standards at those schools. They have academics to keep up with but also the emotional/physical demands of their respective education programs. So to say only educated people who want to go into public service do not consider the military as a viable route is an ignorant statement.
No, you’re not getting the point.
The point that Kristol tries to make is that Obama should have told the graduating class of Wesleyan College that the joining the U.S. military is viable method for beginning a career in public service.
The point I’m trying to make is that Kristol’s a disingenuous douchebag and that Obama didn’t make that argument because the American military doesn’t serve the American public. It serves the special interests of the hypercapitalists. And if there’s any class of Americans who would be aware of the military’s current purpose, it would be the graduating class of a higher institution. A fact that is supported by the educated class’s lower propensity for joining today’s military.
I’m not saying anything bad against those who do join the military (more than education, the prime factor in people’s decision to join the military is whether their family expects them to). I’m simply saying the military is not a “public service.”
And since I was writing at the same time as Shawn, I missed his comment, but my response is within that parenthetical statement: “more than education, the prime factor in people’s decision to join the military is whether their family expects them to.”
To get into West Point, you need to be sponsored by one of your state’s national politicians (either a Senator or a House member, I don’t remember which). If you have that kind of connection, it’s a good bet that your family expects you to join the military.
And of course, there are exceptions to any generality, but generally speaking — and this isn’t me talking, this is the Population Reference Bureau — “children of college educated parents are less likely to serve…those with higher grades are less likely to serve…[and] college students are less likely to enlist.”
Do you not believe that’s true?
Oh, and Justin: don’t turn this into an “elitist” thing. Your statement, “Just because a majority of the army is made up of people who do not meet your standards of “smart” people does not mean…”
I never used the word “smart.” I said “educated.” There’s a difference.
“more than education, the prime factor in people’s decision to join the military is whether their family expects them to.”
thats just a blanket statement which is not true. yes there are family expectations with some “West Pointers”, but also conscience personal decisions of the student also. I have a perfect example, I work with someone who’s son is at the naval academy at this moment, he’s a sophmore, so he knew what he was getting into when he enlisted. His father did not expect him or demand him to go there. He wanted him to to apply to other “ivory” schools. It was his own decision to enlist and go to Annapolis. He wanted to something for his country (public service) and also get an exceptional education and a step off point to a career either in politics (public service) or something along the lines as a economist, work for the UN, etc… all noble careers…
So for you to make that statement it IS elitist in my view.
I did not read the rest of the article but I took your initial response to be against the notion that these “educated” people should not be grateful of the men and woman who risk their lives for their country.
Also as the democratic elect for the commander and chief of the military leaving out that line of public service to the “educated” does seem to be shortsighted. If he is for change having an educated military then can, under his direction, not only protect our country but help other nations would be beneficial.
It’s not a “blanket statement.” It’s a paraphrase from the report on the military population.
“The most powerful predictors of who will serve in the military are survey responses indicating that people want to serve, or expect to serve, in the military.”
So what drives that propensity to serve?
This is from a report entitled, “Military Enlistment and Family Dynamics: Youth and Parental Perspectives“:
“Results also indicate that (a) youth perceptions of parental attitudes predict stated enlistment propensity, which predicts military enlistment, and (b) reported parental attitudes predict military enlistment independently of youth-stated enlistment propensity.”
Which is to say: if parents want their kids to enlist, there’s a greater chance that the kid actually will enlist. Take the two reports together, and you have family attitudes toward enlistment as the prime factor determining the person’s decision to enlist.
And as for your anecdote, again, there are exceptions to every rule.
Justin wrote that our military should “help other nations.”
See. That’s the issue, I think. We expect our military to “help other nations.” Why? It’s the frickin’ military! It’s a killing machine.
What Obama should (and probably did) do was encourage people to join the Peace Corps and various other humanitarian associations.
Again: THE AMERICAN MILITARY AS IT IS CONSTITUTED TODAY is not a viable route of public service. It may have been during WW II. During the Civil War. During the Revolutionary War. And maybe, in the future, it will be again.
But TODAY’S military is little more than the strong-arm of hyper-capitalists. Hopefully, a President Obama will be the first step in the change of that, but even President Eisenhower admitted that he was powerless against the entrenched interested of the military-industrial complex.
When you add in the fact that, in the last fifty years, the complex has only become more entrenched in American society, then the hope that a skinny black kid from Kansas could do anything about it seems a bit naive.
But even if it’s naive, it beats voting for a warmonger like McCain.
all i was saying was that i think it’s pathetic for mccain to be painted like a star quarterback because he had a part to play in the vietnam war… - and to suggest that mccain is superior to obama or anyone else because he killed a bunch of vietnamese people from a helicopter is ridiculous…
i never said that we don’t need a military… - we obviously do… - for defense… - not to go trouncing around other countries with missiles and automatic weapons for empirical reasons…
i never wanted to mention this online… - but… - i think it’s time i do… - my friend’s brother served in iraq and while he was there he went into a jewelry store with his buddies in full gear and robbed the place… - and i’m not saying that all people in the military would do such a thing… - and of course… - if they were caught by their superiors… - they would have been penalized… - but… - they weren’t caught… - just like mccain probably wasn’t caught with his dick in a twelve year old vietnamese hooker while smoking opium out of a tinfoil pipe after a long day of killing… - not that mccain actually did these things… - but… - who knows other than mccain? - so… - to paint him as an american hero worthy of the presidency just by saying that he served our country is absolutely ludicrous…
just look at mccain speak… - look at the way he moves his arms when he speaks… - he’s not natural… - he’s completely uncomfortable in his own skin… - i’ll even wager that he’s not even part of the species…
Kyle please get off the soap box. I work with a group of Serbians that say other otherwise. They say that the US military helped them immensely but I guess you would know better then them. I mean they were there, they saw the US aided them in staying alive, or getting their power back on, or water running. When the US military aided people after the tsunami were they working for some corporate entity? So when the US is helping give aid to china after the earthquake I guess that is to help trade? Or Pakistan? Or flood victims in Ethiopia? And this is off the top of my head and in recent years, I am willing to bet that if I dig deep enough I can find hundreds examples of the US military helping other countries.
Also like all of a sudden the US is bad and during the 1800’s on up it was not. Hey how about using the military to move native Americans off land, or picking a fight with Mexico to get more land, ect ect. There are bad people out there and sometimes we are them.
David when he was given the choice to leave a POW camp he chose to stay. You can say all the crap you want about him, and I will not vote for him, but that says a lot about a guy. He is head and shoulders better then Bush.
i’m sure he was a saint in his vietnam days… - you know… - a napalm in the morning type of guy… - i just want to squeeze him and hug him… - he’s so lovable…
and the world is a lovable place filled with marsh-mellow clouds and rainbows and unicorns.
I am not sure how much trouble he could do when he was being tortured for half a decade, I do know that 9 out of 10 people would choose to be free.
I bet in the next 30 years someone in Iraq right now will be president.
Fair point, Justin.
But I wasn’t trying to say that the military of the 1800s was a force for good (your reference to the massacre of the Native Americans is spot on). I was more saying that the military during the specific years of the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, and WW II was the kind of military I can get behind: citizen soldiers signing up for a war to protect their way of life, and then a massive disbandment at the end of the war. But since the beginning of the Cold War, our military has become a professionalized institution, and while there have been instances of humanitarian aid provided by the military, it is, first and foremost, a killing machine. We’re not talking Doctors without Borders here. We’re talking 18-year old kids walking around with M-16s.
And if one wants to go into public service on an international level, there are much better–and much more honest–ways to do it than to join the ARMED forces. It’s not that the military is incapable of doing good works. It’s that there are other organizations where good works is the prime directive.
And Dave, I think you’re way out of line on McCain. Unless you can show me something that speaks directly to the atrocities he committed in Vietnam, you should probably stop with the slander.
Don’t forget, the one of the reasons you all can keep this conversation going and say what ever you really want, with no secret police banging in your door and taking you away is because of the military and their protecting of free speech…
I have a hard time with all this negative talk regarding military. I think this discussion is going to get us no where. Both Justin and I are in agreement, and both David and Kyle are in agreement…This is a healthy debate, but I can honestly see no “winner”.
Justin and I both see Military service a public service, and a noble one at that. Yes there are hundreds of better public services programs out there, but should place Military as a form of public service.
See, I disagree entirely with your claim that we have free speech because of the “the military.” We have free speech because of people who refuse to be silenced.
woooooo…talk about serious serious talk.
anyone see 30 rock lately? who knew it would be so funny? maybe what everyone needs is a little funny and a cupcake.
yeah cutesy-ness is the answer. + i make a mean cupcake.
I heart cup cakes. Shawn we win.
Kyle, if there was a penalty in this country for talking out then we would see how many people would refuse to be silent. That is beside the point though.
There is not another organization out there that has the equivalent resources as the US military. I guess when the option of lugging supplies up a couple mountains by donkey or having a couple ch-47 Chinooks drop them off if I am the one that needs help I will take the Chinooks. That is not the primary job of the killing machine but like I said Obama is the man for change. He will be the commander of this force and can use it in other ways then just killing people.
The problems with disbanding armies are that you are going to have double digit unemployment rates in certain areas of the country, an unskilled workforce (remember Kyle uneducated people find it hard to get jobs), and an increase in crime. You are taking away one avenue for success from the people who would need it most. I guess that is ok from your standpoint living in rural Vermont.
I know your next comment before you say it, take the money used on the military and spend it on other things to give people jobs. Just remember that by cutting the budget companies that made the stuff for the military will have to lay people off. So the people that are now without jobs, mostly educated, will now take the jobs opened up in the new industry leaving once again the uneducated people without jobs.
f@ck mccain… - and f@ck his goddamn parade of self righteousness… - i was only trying to challenge the media’s lubrication fest and whoever else that is trying to sculpt mccain out to be the prince of goodness because he was in the vietnam war… - so what… - he rolled with the punches when he was captured… - big f@ck’n deal… - i have more respect for the beetle crawling on my computer speaker than i do for mccain…
Rolled with the punches? Really? I am not a McCain fan but to say being stuck in a hole and tortured for 5 years then staying when given the option to leave is rolling with the punches is a bit extreme. I agree there is not relevence between him going to war and Obama not and what kind of leader they will be, but you can not take away what did happen there.
right… - but you also can’t highlight the hero shit either and omit every other goddamn minute of his experience… - f@ck him…
and maybe he liked being tortured… - maybe he’s in his bedroom right now with jumper cables clamped onto his testicles… - the f@ck’n masochist…
ever think of that?
I try not to think about things like that. I also try to go on what happen and not what may of happened. What facts are being omitted? Did he kill inocent people in that war I would say there is a good chance he did, he went on 20 something bombing missions. Did he go with the intent of killing inocent people? I doubt it.
i’ve walked through that vietnam prison. the hanoi hilton. 3.5 star. i mean really? you give them a metal bench to sleep on? that seems mighty nice of you..
kidding. KIDDING.
no, but really, i have walked through it.
i don’t know what facts are being omitted… - that’s what i’m talking about… - me having to accept mccain as a heavenly creature because of this black and white picture that doesn’t expose anything other than his patriotism and his heroics…
it’s like mccain and everyone else with a stupid flag pin saying that america is the greatest country on the face of the earth… - really? - is it really? - am i a heathen for suggesting that maybe the world would be a better place with a little humility and humbleness from our leaders?
bamboo slivers under the fingernails for five years? - it’s called karma…
Karma? Meaning he deserved it?
So as long as we are using that word we might as well say that the hypothetical people (who ironically believed in karma) he killed deserved to die also. Karma right? If they were good people they would not have died.
You do not know what facts are being from Obama’s resume either; he could have been banging underage prostitutes and killing people for sport like in the Ice T movie. Personally I do not trust either of them, you do not get to that point without there being some shadiness.
thank you for showing me the light… - you win… - mccain is an angel with a heart of gold and deserves to be held up on a pedestal of reverence… - he deserves to lead the country because of his bravery and his patriotism… - i see that now… - he is a true maverick with groundbreaking ideas… - god bless him and his sperm…
republicans forever…
and while i’m at it… - god bless bill kristol for perpetuating the truth about the military and all of those beautiful cherubs in camouflage and night vision…
that gives me a great idea for a novel… - from hero to angel… - the life of john mccain… - it’s a romance novel based on his sweaty nights as a prisoner of war to his dry bowel movements of his presidency…
it starts out with john… - he’s tired… - him and his battalion had a long day of lugging all of the dead bodies to mass grave… - cigar rolling around his mouth… - he swipes a wooden match across the forehead of a dead man… - the match breaks… - john spits and looks up at the trees… - “fuck’n gooks.”
Sounds like a great piece of fiction. Reminds me of a story about a guy that was raised and nurtured to b president of the United States and then in the final chapter you see that he was a Manchurian candidate put in place by Islamic extremists using oil money. Oh the irony.
i can see mccain being a manchurian candidate… - it’ll be fun watching him twitch and malfunction at the debates… - or like… - when the secret code word is spoken… - his eyes glaze over and he turns slowly towards obama… - tries to pounce… - breaks his hip instead… - and while he’s gurgling and rolling around the stage on his back… - his pants burst open and milky green manure starts spurting out of the open slit and into the audience like a lawn sprinkler on national television…
Okay, Dave. We get it. You don’t like McCain. Consider your opinion registered.
i’m just getting warmed up for the general election… - my fine feathered rhinoceros… - gosh… - can’t a guy let off some steam every now and again? - i mean… - gosh…