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	<title>Comments on: Itâ€™s time to become an Enlightenist</title>
	<atom:link href="http://fluidimagination.com/blog/2006/11/01/it%e2%80%99s-time-to-become-an-enlightenist/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://fluidimagination.com/blog/2006/11/01/it%e2%80%99s-time-to-become-an-enlightenist/</link>
	<description>Melting down disparate elements to form a new reality.</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 04 Dec 2008 22:49:35 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: justin</title>
		<link>http://fluidimagination.com/blog/2006/11/01/it%e2%80%99s-time-to-become-an-enlightenist/#comment-4465</link>
		<dc:creator>justin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Nov 2006 22:39:38 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Science is good.


http://www.drudgereport.com/irak.jpg

hahaha</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Science is good.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.drudgereport.com/irak.jpg" rel="nofollow">http://www.drudgereport.com/irak.jpg</a></p>
<p>hahaha</p>
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		<title>By: Kyle</title>
		<link>http://fluidimagination.com/blog/2006/11/01/it%e2%80%99s-time-to-become-an-enlightenist/#comment-4461</link>
		<dc:creator>Kyle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Nov 2006 22:00:33 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>If what it proves is wrong, then it didn't very well prove it, does it? 

I know what you're getting at, though. It's the whole "Newton was right until Einstein showed he was wrong" thing. There's an amazingly influential essay/book that I think you should read. It's called &lt;i&gt;&lt;a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&#038;location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FStructure-Scientific-Revolutions-Thomas-Kuhn%2Fdp%2F0226458083&#038;tag=fluidimagaina-20&#038;linkCode=ur2&#038;camp=1789&#038;creative=9325" rel="nofollow"&gt;The Structure of Scientific Revolutions&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/i&gt;, by Thomas Kuhn (this is the guy who brought the concept of scientific paradigms to the forefront, a concept that you, as a former pupil of Mr. Butler, should immediately recognize). Kuhn is an historian of science, and his book argues that a major revolution in science (as in the Einstein one mentioned above)...:

&lt;blockquote&gt;necessitates the [scientific] community's rejection of one time-honored scientific theory in favor of another incompatible with it. Each [revolution] produced a consequent shift in the problems available for scientific scrutiny and in the standards by which the profession determined what should count as an admissable problem or as a legitimate problem-solution. And each transformed the scientific imagination in ways that we shall ultimately need to describe as a transformation of the world within which scientific work was done. Such changes, together with the controversies that almost always accompany them, are the defining characteristics of scientific revolutions. (p. 6)&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Basically, Kuhn argues that scientific communities operate within specific paradigms, and that revolutions occur when a scientist comes along who operates outside of the accepted paradigm and who can offer experimental evidence to support the rationalization of that paradigm. It's not that the former scientists were wrong as much as they were misguided by their paradigm. 

Or something to that effect (I've only read selections from the book, not the whole thing).

One more quote, I think, will help clarify his argument: "[The] need to change the meaning of established and familiar concepts is central to the revolutionary impact of Einstein's theory. Though subtler than the changes from geocentrism to heliocentrism, from phlogiston to oxygen, or from corpuscles to waves, the resulting conceptual transformation is no less decisively destructive of a previously established paradigm...Just because it did not involve the introduction of aditional objects or concepts, the transition from Newtonian to Einsteinian mechanics illustrats with particular clarity the scientific revolution as a displacement of the conceptual network through which scientists view the world."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If what it proves is wrong, then it didn&#8217;t very well prove it, does it? </p>
<p>I know what you&#8217;re getting at, though. It&#8217;s the whole &#8220;Newton was right until Einstein showed he was wrong&#8221; thing. There&#8217;s an amazingly influential essay/book that I think you should read. It&#8217;s called <i><a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&#038;location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FStructure-Scientific-Revolutions-Thomas-Kuhn%2Fdp%2F0226458083&#038;tag=fluidimagaina-20&#038;linkCode=ur2&#038;camp=1789&#038;creative=9325" rel="nofollow">The Structure of Scientific Revolutions</a></i>, by Thomas Kuhn (this is the guy who brought the concept of scientific paradigms to the forefront, a concept that you, as a former pupil of Mr. Butler, should immediately recognize). Kuhn is an historian of science, and his book argues that a major revolution in science (as in the Einstein one mentioned above)&#8230;:</p>
<blockquote><p>necessitates the [scientific] community&#8217;s rejection of one time-honored scientific theory in favor of another incompatible with it. Each [revolution] produced a consequent shift in the problems available for scientific scrutiny and in the standards by which the profession determined what should count as an admissable problem or as a legitimate problem-solution. And each transformed the scientific imagination in ways that we shall ultimately need to describe as a transformation of the world within which scientific work was done. Such changes, together with the controversies that almost always accompany them, are the defining characteristics of scientific revolutions. (p. 6)</p></blockquote>
<p>Basically, Kuhn argues that scientific communities operate within specific paradigms, and that revolutions occur when a scientist comes along who operates outside of the accepted paradigm and who can offer experimental evidence to support the rationalization of that paradigm. It&#8217;s not that the former scientists were wrong as much as they were misguided by their paradigm. </p>
<p>Or something to that effect (I&#8217;ve only read selections from the book, not the whole thing).</p>
<p>One more quote, I think, will help clarify his argument: &#8220;[The] need to change the meaning of established and familiar concepts is central to the revolutionary impact of Einstein&#8217;s theory. Though subtler than the changes from geocentrism to heliocentrism, from phlogiston to oxygen, or from corpuscles to waves, the resulting conceptual transformation is no less decisively destructive of a previously established paradigm&#8230;Just because it did not involve the introduction of aditional objects or concepts, the transition from Newtonian to Einsteinian mechanics illustrats with particular clarity the scientific revolution as a displacement of the conceptual network through which scientists view the world.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: justin</title>
		<link>http://fluidimagination.com/blog/2006/11/01/it%e2%80%99s-time-to-become-an-enlightenist/#comment-4456</link>
		<dc:creator>justin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Nov 2006 21:14:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fluidimagination.com/blog/2006/11/01/it%e2%80%99s-time-to-become-an-enlightenist/#comment-4456</guid>
		<description>Good point but my point is that we are not scientists so we have to take what they say as true when in most cases as technology evolves we find out they are wrong. The act of science is right but what it proves can be wrong. If that makes sense?

In 100 years people will look back at us and say "they believed what, those fuckin morons" or whatever.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good point but my point is that we are not scientists so we have to take what they say as true when in most cases as technology evolves we find out they are wrong. The act of science is right but what it proves can be wrong. If that makes sense?</p>
<p>In 100 years people will look back at us and say &#8220;they believed what, those fuckin morons&#8221; or whatever.</p>
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		<title>By: Kyle</title>
		<link>http://fluidimagination.com/blog/2006/11/01/it%e2%80%99s-time-to-become-an-enlightenist/#comment-4454</link>
		<dc:creator>Kyle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Nov 2006 21:02:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fluidimagination.com/blog/2006/11/01/it%e2%80%99s-time-to-become-an-enlightenist/#comment-4454</guid>
		<description>I don't accept such a blanket statement as science "probably being wrong," because it's not necessarily about whether a conclusion is wrong or right, but whether it is supported by the evidence. Good science -- open science -- gives you access to the thinking and investigation that leads to a particular conclusion (or lack thereof). Looking at the data, you can say that it doesn't support the conclusion drawn by the scientist, but that's not the same thing as saying that "science is wrong," because you're using the same scientific method to critique the scientist's conclusion. 

"Science" is not wrong. Some scientists are.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t accept such a blanket statement as science &#8220;probably being wrong,&#8221; because it&#8217;s not necessarily about whether a conclusion is wrong or right, but whether it is supported by the evidence. Good science &#8212; open science &#8212; gives you access to the thinking and investigation that leads to a particular conclusion (or lack thereof). Looking at the data, you can say that it doesn&#8217;t support the conclusion drawn by the scientist, but that&#8217;s not the same thing as saying that &#8220;science is wrong,&#8221; because you&#8217;re using the same scientific method to critique the scientist&#8217;s conclusion. </p>
<p>&#8220;Science&#8221; is not wrong. Some scientists are.</p>
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		<title>By: justin</title>
		<link>http://fluidimagination.com/blog/2006/11/01/it%e2%80%99s-time-to-become-an-enlightenist/#comment-4453</link>
		<dc:creator>justin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Nov 2006 20:56:29 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I understand that but the problem is that a person can love science but not what science proves or says because it is probably wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I understand that but the problem is that a person can love science but not what science proves or says because it is probably wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: Kyle</title>
		<link>http://fluidimagination.com/blog/2006/11/01/it%e2%80%99s-time-to-become-an-enlightenist/#comment-4451</link>
		<dc:creator>Kyle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Nov 2006 20:50:08 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>It's called being a self-correcting process, and as opposed to being a reason to disparage science, it's one of the (if not &lt;i&gt;the&lt;/i&gt;) major reason why science is so powerful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s called being a self-correcting process, and as opposed to being a reason to disparage science, it&#8217;s one of the (if not <i>the</i>) major reason why science is so powerful.</p>
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		<title>By: justin</title>
		<link>http://fluidimagination.com/blog/2006/11/01/it%e2%80%99s-time-to-become-an-enlightenist/#comment-4450</link>
		<dc:creator>justin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Nov 2006 20:45:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fluidimagination.com/blog/2006/11/01/it%e2%80%99s-time-to-become-an-enlightenist/#comment-4450</guid>
		<description>My problem with science is it has a history of being wrong. If you went bact 500-800 years and look at the shit we believed (non religion) it is amazing. I am curious what in 100 years we will look back on and say what the fuck were we thinking. 


I am not saying science is bad just that science always proves science wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My problem with science is it has a history of being wrong. If you went bact 500-800 years and look at the shit we believed (non religion) it is amazing. I am curious what in 100 years we will look back on and say what the fuck were we thinking. </p>
<p>I am not saying science is bad just that science always proves science wrong.</p>
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