I have a question for you. How much better does your life need to get? I ask this not expecting you to rate your life on a 1 - 10 scale of desires and satisfactions, but rather, for you to explain some sort of rationale behind whatever number you would choose.
The reason I ask is because so much of of the American value system seems predicated on the idea that life continually gets better. But I look at myself, and here I am, a white, upper-middle class dude, who’s getting a good education (the mistakes in my education are my own), living in a friendly community in a beautiful environment, and who also has the supreme pleasure of wonderful woman’s company and conversation, and I think to myself, how does a person’s life get any better than this?
But then I sit back and I remember all the billions and billions of people who are not me, and I wonder whether the system that produced such pleasures for me might not need to be tweaked a little bit, you know, so that more people might have similar pleasures.
Of course, this is quickly followed by the thought that not everyone wants or is capable of my kinds of pleasures, and that, in return, I do not want nor am I capable of their kinds of pleasures. Which makes me question whether an entire system that promotes pleasure as the sole object of our desire is such a good system in the first place. Given the variety of temperaments that people have, focusing everything on pleasure would seem to lead to an awful lot of conflict.
But if more and deeper experiences of pleasure are not the measure of our senses of things getting better, then by what measure shall we determine our progress?
Which would seem to make my question not only, “How much better do you need things to get?”, but also “What kinds of things do you need to get better?”
That is, I think, the question a society’s intellectuals needs to think about when its intellectual class has reached such a level of luxury and comfort that they have very little left to consider for their own self-interests and, instead, can take the time to consider the other’s.
In other words, when a social class has reached the stage of comfort where they have nothing left to do but talk (or blog), how much — and what kind — of progress should be the topic of discussion.
17 Comments
Kyle, those are a lot of great questions and comments. In fact they made me think so much that I had to get a cup of coffee… and now I am still not sure where to begin.
On blogging; The thing that is interesting to me about this kind of discussion, is that it’s not happening in real time. For instance, as I sit here and type alone, I am confident in my thoughts and beliefs, in my study, inside my apartment. I am not having a face to face conversation with you where our flow could only be broken up by interruptions or digressions.
Here our conversations are broken up by large lapses in time (amongst other outside distractions). I am responding to you in the morning (as I do sometimes). After this I will get up go to the gym, come home do homework for three hours, figure out me and Debs finances for my taxes, and then probably check to see if you have posted any comments on my response. During this time, let’s say, I get stuck in traffic, and find out I owe lots of money to the government. My mood will have drastically altered, and I may not be as willing to accept whatever you will write next. Because, again, we are not face to face, I am now in a bad mood and do not want to be swayed by your view points. So I respond, unmoved, then you respond, and I read that tomorrow morning, etc. Now what should normally be a ten minute discussion, has been dragged out to a two day affair. Your responses, will no doubt be strong, in front of an audience, and I will want to counter your opinions. My counter will want to grab the attention of Justin, who I hope would take my side. Now I could have another person arguing with you, helping me to feel like I “won”. All the while you are posting more stuff on the main page, and this futile debate becomes forgotten or lost.
Your piece on Netflix is a good example of what I mean. You, Shawn, me, Justin and Adam were all a part of that conversation. Adam and I got into a different thread of disagreement, people responded, then it was over. I don’t feel anything was gained. Adam brought up some strong points, but not strong enough to convince me otherwise. I’m sure he feels the same about what I had to say.
So, I ask you this; How are we supposed to make a difference socially if our conversations are happening in this format? (Keep in mind I am not referring to links or current events, only opinion based conversation)
On comfort:
I don’t think anyone contributing to this page has truly reached a level of comfort. We are all working, or going to school, as a means to make money, and one day achieve comfort. Are we still more wealthy then other people in the world? Yes. How do we alter that, so those poor people can have our comfort? We don’t. We are all products of a system that we did not set up. We [contributers to Fluid Imagination] are all (or should be) working to advance within this system. Does this prove that I have more then other less fortunate people? Yes, I have the option to improve.
Let’s keep in mind that the person who keep’s this site alive, you, and the main audience, us, are mostly comprised of white men. What does that mean? We are already amongst the most privileged people in the world. Which means we can get a good education, or find a job, and advance in our work or schooling. Yeah, in the big scheme of things, that is a comfort that other people are not given. But as I said I am a product of a system I did not set up. So, while I am in this system I will try to work it out as best I can. I will compete with others inside it, I will become a consumer (of clothing, automobiles, computers etc.) I will buy expensive food and drink Guinness. All of this will bring me temporary comfort, while I try to achieve more comfort (in retirement). These are my options in a flawed system.
Would I give up 100% of my (chuckle) wealth if everyone else (millionaires, businesses etc.) did, so that people could live with equal comfort? Sure (I really would), if that were even close to a reality. But it’s not. The reality is we [contributers to FI] work in our own way to better ourselves. As does the rest of the world.
Kyle, you said, “…the question a society’s intellectuals needs to think about when its intellectual class has reached such a level of luxury and comfort that they have very little left to consider for their own self-interests and, instead, can take the time to consider the other’s.” I constantly consider others needs. I constantly question the American way of doing things. What difference can I make in the big picture? That all depends on what you consider to be “making a difference”. I could give you a list of things I do on a regular basis, but we would get off topic.
So, what can our discussions (which are coming from presumably intellectual minds) do to aid in the progress or advancement of the less fortunate? I will sadly say, that we can not change the world. We can, hopefully, further educate each other. Which can bring about immeasurably small changes.
As a totally unrealated note, I noticed the time for my comments is fast by about an hour and ten minutes. Are you getting that too, Kyle?
Why should someone who is either smarter/works harder/more educated then me give up some of the money they worked for to help me or people who are even poorer? There are rich people who are rich because they have busted their ass and sacrificed otheer things in their life to become that way. why would anyone work hard or try to better themselved if they knew they would get the same as a guy who spends his time drinking smoking weed and playing video games?
Also isn’t that welfare that we all pay taxes into?
Anyway everytime I am broke or can’t get a xbox 360 I just remember it could be a lot worse. My life is donald trump-like compared to how I have lived before. Time is the only thing I wish I had more of but would I give up some of the crap I have for it? That is the main issue money or time. When you have to check the calender to see your friends then something is wrong.
Justin: You said, “Why should someone who is either smarter/works harder/more educated than me give up some of the money they worked for to help me or people who are even smarter?”
Are you telling me that the guys building bridges and roads bust their ass less than the banker in the office? Do you think a banker — hell, even me — could frame up windows for a house? Could Bill Gates be a good elementary school teacher?
Why should a CEO, who is responsible for, say, a couple of hundred jobs, make more money than a teacher who will educate thousands of children in her lifetime?
Your question assumes that the person has “earned” the money that they are “giving up.” It’s not about taking from the rich, but about not giving them the money they may not deserve in the first place.
This is not to say that everyone should be paid the same wage. But it is to say that we need to rethink the way we value a given position. I don’t have the answer to that one, but that’s not to say there isn’t a better one available.
And your last sentiment is right on.
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Leigh: First, no conversations on this blog are ever officially “over.” If you were to leave another comment on the Netflix thing, it would show up in the “Recent Comments” section on the front page (plus, as the writer of the post, I would get an e-mail), where anyone who was still interested in the conversation could spot it. It’s not over until you decide not to add anything more.
Second, if you feel like nothing has been gained, leave a comment as to why not, and try to come to some sort of conlusion. Say, “Adam said so and so, but for such and such a reason, his argument holds no water with me. Perhaps if he said this and that, I could have been persuaded? Adam, why didn’t you say this and that?”
Then, with a direct question like that, Adam is almost sure to respond.
I mean, you know almost everyone who comments on this site, and those you don’t know, you can get to know through their comments. Just call them out, and they’ll come out. Hell, that’s how Adam jumped into the Netflix conversation in the first place. I called him out on not contributing to the Netflix community, and he came out to defend himself. I mean, we’re simple people. Ask us a question by name, and we’ll answer.
Third, you asked about the time lag on in the conversations, and wondered how it would effect our ability to make a social contribution. For my “Intellectual History of Europe” class, we just started reading Marx and Engels. In the introduction, the editor mentions that, in 1844, Marx began constructing the ideas that he would publish under the title Capital in 1867. That’s over 20 years of gestation time. Try thinking of what we talk about here in such a way.
Imagine, for a moment, that the ideas began in that Netflix conversation somehow grab a hold of me or Adam or you or Justin, or of some anonymous reader. That person then massages whatever inspiration was found, molds it into something new and beautiful, and with it, changes the economic system of the world.
That’s the kind of effect you can have here, if you want and if you’re capable. You have to remember that the Internet, as big and complex as it is, can be conceived as little more than an library. And this blog, as mundane as it is, can be conceived as a book. When you publish your comments here, you’re writing in a book.
You know where people learn shit? In books. I’m now reading a book by Marx. Someday, some kid may read a post by Leigh. The only difference is delivery.
So, while you can think of this as a time-lagged conversation (as I sometimes do), you can also think of it as a timeless book (as I othertimes do). There is no single metaphor for the Internet, so don’t get stuck in the “conversation” one. If the metaphor doesn’t fit your needs, reframe it.
Fourth, and final: You said that you constantly think of others. I didn’t mean to imply that you (or anyone else) didn’t.
I think it’s safe to point out that this post stemmed from the Netflix conversation…
(Which brings me back to my first point: The Netflix conversation didn’t end. It mutated (my thoughts anyway) into something that I thought deserved a new post. As a registered contributor of Fluid Imagination, you have the power to take a conversation out of the comments of section of one post and into the main body of another. Don’t be afraid to use that power)
…where, Adam had written, “Let’s all just be happy with what we have…,” and I had responded that such was the model of apathy. But his comment got me thinking about my own life, and how, while I was happy with what I have, I still wanted “more.” And I started wondering what “more” meant, and that wondering led to this post.
As comfortable and as pleasurable as my life is, I am not “happy” with what I have, and the reason I am not happy is something that I think is above and beyond liberal guilt, but is instead some variation of “Christian” fellowship, where another’s suffering is horrible not because it makes me feel bad, but because no one should have to suffer, and least of all, no one should have to suffer due to actions that are nothing more than economic.
Was is the school teacher female? They also make pretty good money(not saying it shouldn’t be higher as I am married to one) But to make in the mid 40’s and only work 180 days a year is not that bad. Its not great for what they do but its not excatly crap either.
What guys building roads or bridges make less money then a banker? I bet they would be almost at the same rate of pay.(mostly if you are talking union engineers or steelworkers) but that is besides the point. My point is that they(bankers-ceo’s ect) sacrificed by going to school getting good grades and chances are racked up a shit load of debt doing so. Shouldn’t they make more then say a guy who runs a machine that lays blacktop for roads. A job that maybe only took a couple of months to train for. Why would anyone o to school if they knew that it didn’t have any outcome on how much they would make?
Why does it matter if Gates can teach? That is not the path he chose, but I bet if he wanted to he could be. Are you telling me he could not be a computer teacher?
I don’t really have any answer for you. But if everything should stay the way it is, as your argument would imply, how can things be made better? The question of economic betterment is an important one, no doubt. But is it the only one?
In today’s society, there seems to be a certain degree of estrangement that just seems more than it ought to be. The cause of this estrangement may well be economic, as Marx would have it, which would seem to suggest that, if we want things to be better, we must improve our economic system.
Marx thought communism would be that improvement, but that doesn’t mean that he was right. He didn’t predict the developments of the 20th century, that’s for sure. But he wrote in the middle of the 1800s; if we imagine him only explaining up until those moments, and leave his future to our historians, we can retain his idea that modern humans grow more and more estranged from their lives and their societies.
For example, a corporate worker leaves about 40 hours of her life in her office. During those 40 hours, the worker is not very involved in her day. She doodles in meetings, puts off any tasks that can be put off (completes those that can’t with a significant lack of gusto), and exchanges most of her words with coworkers that she has never invited into her home. How much does such a person consider her work to be a part of her identity?
She has become estranged from those hours of her life. She has, as Marx would say, sold them as labor.
The estrangement is not just within the individual, but also within the individual’s relation to society. When she comes home from the office, the corporate worker drives up her driveway, pulls into her garage, and walks into the house, where she will, unless she has to run an errand, spend the remainder of her night. She will sit on the couch alone (or with her small, immediate family only) and watch television. Sometime after the Daily Show/Colber Report, she will turn off the TV and go to sleep.
During that time she has not sold as labor, she is estranged from her community. She feels closer to John Stewart, who she has never met, than she does to her own neighbors, who will once in a while wave hello across the fence.
Economics, however, does not seem to be the sole source of social estrangement. Perhaps, at its bottom, economics is the cause: the TV which keeps her entertained, preventing her from even desiring human interaction, is perhaps only possible given the conditions of an industrialist society; but it doesn’t seem as if an economic change would solve the problem. The amount of money one has in one’s pocket does not directly contribute to the experience of social estrangement.
You said that the main issue is money or time. As people without products, we sell our time to make money. But if we had more time, would we spend it more wisely? What would it look like to spend our time more wisely?
And what is the thing that, under our current economic system, prevents us from spending more wisely the time that we haven’t yet sold?
Why does our example worker spend her time on the couch? What would be a wiser way for her to spend her time? And why would it be wiser?
I think Marx is wrong in that she is not selling her “hours” she is selling her talent at what she is doing.
She is selling her talent? What does that mean?
Does she have some unique talent that makes her more qualified for the mid-level job than some other individual with a basic college degree?
Actually, don’t answer that. We’re starting to get into the nitty gritty of the fictional example we’re using, but what I’d really like to talk about is the higher level concept of estrangement, which I take to be a “general” fact of our times. The worker is just a way to ground the abstract concept so it’s easier to understand, not to make the worker the level of the discussion.
If she is selling her talent, does that mean she is not estranged from her own life, and if so, why? It doesn’t seem to follow from changing the word “hours” to “talent,” that the question of estrangement is answered. Her daily experience is still the same.
With a basic college dergree she has a way to fill a need over a person who does not, so you are not selling your hours you are selling your ability(education/experience/whatever) to do the job. But that is not really the topic.
We have always “had” to do something. 20,000 years ago it was more like “had” to get food so we do not syarve and die and then it evolved as we evolved. We no longer faced starvation(majority of people) but we still have the drive to do something to put food on the table. I would bet that 500-1000 years ago people spent more time working(farming, hunting, ect) then interacting with other people then they do now.
I guess my point is that we have always been like this, only now instead of working to survive we work for material goods. So how are we becoming estranged from our lives if that is and has always been our life.
Also I would tend to believe that we interact more with other people then we did 1000 years ago. The population was so spread out that a family would probably only see another family once a week at church.
Justin,
Speaking to your point about what people did in the olden days, I recall from my anthropology class that the hunter gatheri of old spent about 2 hours a day on their sustenance issues, and the rest was open for social interactions. Seems like a pretty good deal, although Im not sure where they plugged in their XBoxen.
Leigh,
To your first comment about the conversation trailing away, there is an option that Kyle can install which will allow you to “subscribe” to a thread and you’ll be notified by email when people post new comments. I think we should give it a shot, agree (y) or disagree (n)? Anyone else, thoughts?
Justin,
“When you have to check the calender to see your friends then something is wrong.” Great quote. I think we’re booked for Sushi with you 2 Saturdays from now right?
Finally Kyle and your Fictional Depressed Capitalist Worker,
“…not very involved in her day. She doodles in meetings, puts off any tasks that can be put off (completes those that can’t with a significant lack of gusto)…”
Life sucks for this lady, but it doesn’t have to. Where is personal choice for her? Find another job. Do something else with your life.
There are lots of people who would gladly trade places with her. Have their healthcare paid for, get a yearly vacation, Watch TV etc. You paint a bleak picture here, but you and she could choose another path.
First, the RSS feed for comments is always available. You can subscribe to the feed for a particular post by using the “RSS” button at the top of the comments section (next to “Trackback”). It’s also at the bottom of the comments section: “You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed.”
Second, we can do it by e-mail instead of RSS? Where is that option? Is it a plugin for Wordpress? If so, where can I find it?
Third, on the fictional lady in my example. I’m not saying that people wouldn’t trade places with her. What I’m saying is that her life is, I think, representative of many people living in America today. You say it sucks, but she might not even think so, and for all the reasons you gave: she has healthcare, vacations, a home with a TV, perhaps a family, etc.
But that’s the issue I’m trying to bring up. The fact that people can be so estranged from their lives and not even know it. Take away the fancy word of estrangement, and I’m saying that I don’t think many people are actually engaged with their lives (in whatever way they see fit). It is something that happens to them.
Now, they may have all the material comforts, and TV may entertain them enough so that they don’t consider any “deep” questions, and they are generally “happy” (especially with their Zoloft prescription). But this post originated with the idea that life can become better somehow.
I’m just wondering what you all think the term “better” might mean for an American who has all the creature comforts (home, security, and family). I think Justin hit on at least one answer: Better would mean more time to spend with friends and family.
Are there any other ways we can imagine our lives becoming “better?”
Josh i am not saying cave people had less time to spend with their cave buddies and that their day consisted of nothing but hunting I was mearly making a point that we are hardwired to always doing something to make our lives better. Now when we changed from the hunter/gatherer to mainly an agricultural society we now spent more time farming then we used too hunting. Farming was more time consuming (mostly in places where you could farm all year long) but it offered a constant source of food thus letting our population to explode. Now we can all enjoy hot sake. Anyway…
Marx was wrong in some of his theories. We compete, we have always competed, probably always will compete. Millions and millions years of evolution will be hard to change. Also the working class will not rebel because most of the working class (in this country) are doing well. He also never worked small businesses and entrepeneurs into his equation. The ability to start your own business keeps the ambitious working class from uprising.
Kyle some people are happy working, gives their life meaning. Some people enjoy the company of their co-workers, or making fun of other co-workers.
“I’m just wondering what you all think the term “better†might mean for an American who has all the creature comforts (home, security, and family)…Are there any other ways we can imagine our lives becoming “better?†”
I think I had an answer to that in the first two paragraphs of my second comment: We can advance within this flawed system, make money and buying things.
Personally, I would like to have a job where I am considered important. Possibly a teaching position. I love the idea of having a flexible schedule, too. Not because I want to sit around, but actually because I have a ridiculous amount of energy. I would love to have the option to work on lots of projects outside of ‘work’. But I need an inspiring job to aid in that. Also a job that doesn’t require 40 hours a week would help. I need money to have a professionally working studio/wood-shop. The studio would be for my sculpture and the workshop for my projects (furniture etc.) And I need time to buy an old house and fix it up. Also if I had a studio, I could have a long term project. I’ve always had this idea in my mind that I would like to spend a few years trying to replicate a master painting. Oh dude, traveling too. I want to travel once a year. It doesn’t have to be anything super exotic, just a different culture. I’ve spent my twenties working like a guy in his forties. So now I want to spend my thirties like a girl in her teens. Well you know what I mean, her late teens. Backpacking through Europe and meeting people. Long brown hair blowing in the breeze…golden tan…tight fitting jeans…
So for Leigh, “better” is accumulation of money and things (more stuff), but it is also more free time for personal growth and development through art, travel, and transexuality.
For Justin, “better” is a more enjoyable balance between money and time, where the money would be used to acquire the basic needs and wants and the time would be used to develop stronger social relations with friends and family.
For Josh, I’m not sure what better might mean.
What about the rest of you though? The regulars we haven’t heard from are Adam, Dawn, and Shawn. And there are the individuals we only know virtually, such Fido the Yak, Dave from This is Not News, and our friend over at Sinequanon. Not to mention the dozen or so nameless individuals who visit the site regularly but have yet to comment.
What do the rest of you think it might mean to make life better?
I’m bringing this one back up to the top in an attempt to get some of those people Kyle called out to comment….
And now I am too, over a year later.
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